The next stage of thinking about 'chastise/etc'

The reason I see this as important is that -

1. it is a proverb that God teaches - but how?
2. and it is used in the New Testament in Hebrews.
3. and it has justified all sorts of violence in human behaviour.

Further, given that Jesus suffered violence and did not return it in kind, and that 'we' inclusively, particularly, and collectively as chosen of whatever stripe are called to be as he is, and given that a favorite response (well nigh universal) to suffering is one of punishment or teaching or testing, all the glosses that are chosen are 'important' whether for their affirmative or apophatic vibrations.

Can I, I wonder, think about foreground as well as background?

One step at a time - the parts of the translation to be changed / refined / removed / replaced / corrected / chastised / instructed / rationalized /given to the sieve of concordance are noted in grey.

I think the question is: what in our current language and historical framework would best gloss learning in relationship? Particularly concerning the relationship of a child of our time to the One who is Sufficient? (pick your God - it's a multiple choice question).

Text		Translation	Speech part	Root	occurs in Job	Comment
ג הִנֵּה יִסַּרְתָּ רַבִּים וְיָדַיִם רָפוֹת תְּחַזֵּק	4.3	Behold you have mentored many and weak hands you have made to prevail	Piel perfect	יסר	1
יז הִנֵּה אַשְׁרֵי אֱנוֹשׁ יוֹכִחֶנּוּ אֱלוֹהַּ וּמוּסַר שַׁדַּי אַל-תִּמְאָס	5.17	Behold happy is the mortal whom God corrects the correction of the Sufficient do not refuse	Hiphil imperfect	(verb) יכח - (noun) מוסר	15 (verb) - 4 (noun)	the verb despise is equally important in this thread
כד הוֹרוּנִי וַאֲנִי אַחֲרִישׁ וּמַה-שָּׁגִיתִי הָבִינוּ לִי	6.24	Teach me and I will be silent and where I have strayed, make me understand	Hiphil imperative	ירה	9
כה מַה-נִּמְרְצוּ אִמְרֵי-יֹשֶׁר וּמַה-יּוֹכִיחַ הוֹכֵחַ מִכֶּם	6.25	how grievous are words of uprightness so what does your correction correct?	hiphil infinitive||hiphil imperfect	יכח
כו הַלְהוֹכַח מִלִּים תַּחְשֹׁבוּ וּלְרוּחַ אִמְרֵי נוֹאָשׁ	6.26	And to correct speeches - do you count as wind the sayings of one who is desperate?	Hiphil infinitive	יכח
י הֲלֹא-הֵם יוֹרוּךָ יֹאמְרוּ לָךְ וּמִלִּבָּם יוֹצִאוּ מִלִּים	8.10	will not they teach you and speak to you and from their heart bring forth speeches	Hiphil imperfect	ירה
לג לֹא יֵשׁ-בֵּינֵינוּ מוֹכִיחַ יָשֵׁת יָדוֹ עַל-שְׁנֵינוּ	9.33	there is not between us an umpire that might fix his hand on the two of us	Hiphil participle	יכח
ז וְאוּלָם שְׁאַל-נָא בְהֵמוֹת וְתֹרֶךָּ וְעוֹף הַשָּׁמַיִם וְיַגֶּד-לָךְ	12.7	"nevertheless ask please the beasts and they will teach you and the birds of heaven and they will tell you	Hiphil imperfect	ירה
ח אוֹ שִׂיחַ לָאָרֶץ וְתֹרֶךָּ וִיסַפְּרוּ לְךָ דְּגֵי הַיָּם	12.8	or complain to the earth and it will teach you and the fishes of the sea will recount it to you"	Hiphil imperfect	ירה
יח מוּסַר מְלָכִים פִּתֵּחַ וַיֶּאְסֹר אֵזוֹר בְּמָתְנֵיהֶם	12.18	correction of kings he opens and binds their loins with a girdle	noun	מוסר
ג אוּלָם אֲנִי אֶל-שַׁדַּי אֲדַבֵּר וְהוֹכֵחַ אֶל-אֵל אֶחְפָּץ	13.3	"nevertheless for me, to the Sufficient I would speak" but I desire to reason with God	Hiphil infinitive	יכח
י הוֹכֵחַ יוֹכִיחַ אֶתְכֶם אִם-בַּסֵּתֶר פָּנִים תִּשָּׂאוּן	13.10	Reason? he will reason with you if you concealed lift up faces	hiphil infinitive||hiphil imperfect	יכח
טו הֵן יִקְטְלֵנִי לא (לוֹ) אֲיַחֵל אַךְ-דְּרָכַי אֶל-פָּנָיו אוֹכִיחַ	13.15	Lo - he will kill me I do not wait Surely my ways before his faces I will reason	Hiphil imperfect	יכח
ג הוֹכֵחַ בְּדָבָר לֹא-יִסְכּוֹן וּמִלִּים לֹא-יוֹעִיל בָּם	15.3	To reason with a word without profit and from speeches where he will not benefit	Hiphil infinitive	יכח
ה כִּי יְאַלֵּף עֲו‍ֹנְךָ פִיךָ וְתִבְחַר לְשׁוֹן עֲרוּמִים	15.5	for your mouth mentors iniquity and you chose the tongue of the subtle	Piel imperfect	אלף	3 - also 33:33 / 35:11	Piel imperf / participle
כא וְיוֹכַח לְגֶבֶר עִם-אֱלוֹהַּ וּבֶן-אָדָם לְרֵעֵהוּ	16.21	that a man might plead with God and a child of dust with his friend	Hiphil imperfect	יכח
ה אִם-אָמְנָם עָלַי תַּגְדִּילוּ וְתוֹכִיחוּ עָלַי חֶרְפָּתִי	19.5	If truly against me you gloat and determine against me my reproach	Hiphil imperfect	יכח
ג מוּסַר כְּלִמָּתִי אֶשְׁמָע וְרוּחַ מִבִּינָתִי יַעֲנֵנִי	20.3	correction of my insult I hear and the spirit of my understanding makes me answer	noun	מוסר	also 36:10
כב הַלְאֵל יְלַמֶּד-דָּעַת וְהוּא רָמִים יִשְׁפּוֹט	21.22	who will teach knowledge to God when he the exalted judges?	Piel imperfect	למד	1
ד הֲמִיִּרְאָתְךָ יֹכִיחֶךָ יָבוֹא עִמְּךָ בַּמִּשְׁפָּט	22.4	will he from your fear correct you will he come with you to judgment?	Hiphil imperfect	יכח
כב קַח-נָא מִפִּיו תּוֹרָה וְשִׂים אֲמָרָיו בִּלְבָבֶךָ	22.22	take please from his mouth instruction and set his words in your heart	noun	תורה	1
ז שָׁם יָשָׁר נוֹכָח עִמּוֹ וַאֲפַלְּטָה לָנֶצַח מִשֹּׁפְטִי	23.7	there the upright could reason with him and I would be delivered in perpetuity from my judge	Niphal participle	יכח
יא אוֹרֶה אֶתְכֶם בְּיַד-אֵל אֲשֶׁר עִם-שַׁדַּי לֹא אֲכַחֵד	27.11	I will instruct you in the hand of God that with the Sufficient I will not hide	Hiphil imperfect	ירה
יט הֹרָנִי לַחֹמֶר וָאֶתְמַשֵּׁל כֶּעָפָר וָאֵפֶר	30.19	he has taught me in clay and I am parabled as dust and ashes	Hiphil perfect	ירה	also 34:32,36:22,38:6
יב וְעָדֵיכֶם אֶתְבּוֹנָן וְהִנֵּה אֵין לְאִיּוֹב מוֹכִיח עוֹנֶה אֲמָרָיו מִכֶּם	32.12	you I understood and behold there is for Job no correction - answer to his words from you	Hiphil participle	יכח
טז אָז יִגְלֶה אֹזֶן אֲנָשִׁים וּבְמֹסָרָם יַחְתֹּם	33.16	then he reveals to mortal ear and their mentoring he seals	noun	מסר
יט וְהוּכַח בְּמַכְאוֹב עַל-מִשְׁכָּבוֹ וריב (וְרוֹב) עֲצָמָיו אֵתָן	33.19	and he is chastened in being marred on his couch and the contention of his bones is perennial	Hophal perfect	יכח
ב הֲרֹב עִם-שַׁדַּי יִסּוֹר מוֹכִיחַ אֱלוֹהַּ יַעֲנֶנָּה	40.2		Hiphil participle	יכח